December 9th, 2005
Reportage of the women and blogging debate
My earlier post about Irish women bloggers provoked a lot of cross-blog debate, notably between the very women I was attempting to engage in the first place. The thread is still pulling in a lot of comments for anyone who is following the discussion.
Whatever your viewpoint on any aspect of the discussion - feminism, gender, blogging, content, writing etc - the range of opinions expressed were diverse and revealing in themselves. It also makes me think that this topic was long overdue for discussion, given the reactions it provoked. What I really wanted to ask is why, when a group of women have a stimulating and topical debate, it is often reported negatively as “Civil War” or a “catfight”.
If male bloggers were exchanging similarly strong views, it would be reported as weighty wrangling or serious discourse, but a discussion dominated by women is reduced to the level of metaphorical hair-pulling.
As many of the women concluded and it’s a view I share, blogging is about quality blogs and not gender, so why did some people not respect the discussion for what it was? Are the boys feeling threatened because they were left out of a major blog discussion?
Update: Ok, I’ve come across more bloggers picking up on this so I’ll keep adding them as I find them:
Maura at Babblogue
Treasa at Winds and Breezes
Carrie over at The Broom
Claire at Ginger Pixel
Suzy at Maman Poulet
Fiona at Trixibell
Caoimhe at The Blog & I
More links:
EWI at Free Stater
Fence at Pretty Cunning
If any slip through the net, let me know.
December 9th, 2005 at 3:24 pm
Ah, Sinead! Sometimes I wonder if not all people get the genes necessary to put tongue in cheek?
December 9th, 2005 at 3:36 pm
I get the humour, I just think it’s a bit lame to refer to it as catfight, civil war bitchfest type of thing. And I’m surprised at In Fact, Ah buying into it!
December 9th, 2005 at 3:45 pm
I think it’s described like that by men cos that’s the kind of show the guys like to watch
December 9th, 2005 at 3:47 pm
“Ah sure I was only joking like” “You people can’t take a joke”
I think London Denizen’s comment here: http://fdelondras.blogspot.com/2005/12/bloggeresses-unite.html#c113403451538958372
summed it up nicely. Using “satire” doesn’t neutralise the comments. UI and his ilk are happy to make slurs and then add “Sure I’m only joking” and suggest people get a sense of humour if they complain.
December 9th, 2005 at 3:53 pm
I think the generic point you are making is probably valid. Us guys know better than to jump into that sort of debate with any serious viewpoint. Humour is our only safe option to get a piece of the action
December 9th, 2005 at 5:56 pm
I’m perplexed at the ‘catfight’ ‘civilwar’ descriptions…I’m assuming it may be because Auds wrote in her updated reply post all the labels she had read people placing on her??? To my mind the whole thing has been very courteous and engaging….is this just a case of men feeling left out of a conversation..? If we had a a similiar cross blog discussion between the same people with the same type of engagment but on the topic of the latest plugins for wordpress…would it still be labelled a ‘catfight’..
December 9th, 2005 at 6:25 pm
It’s ironic that a discussion on feminism gets so hung up on what men think.
December 9th, 2005 at 6:38 pm
Damien Mulley
“UI and his ilk are happy to make slurs and then add “Sure I’m only joking” and suggest people get a sense of humour if they complain.”
No Damien, people of YOUR ilk are unhappy at any sort of humour that tackles taboo subjects. I’m surprised Twenty Major has managed to avoid your wrath thus far though apparently he’s received some emails lately complaining about his content. Was it you?
For the record, I didn’t NEED to add “Sure I’m only joking” as anyone with a modicum of intelligence would have been able to figure that out.
Funny how female contributors on United Irelander got the humour isn’t it?
Here’s a comment from Fence, blogger over at Pretty Cunning:
“I found nothing at all offensive, after all nothing a man says can be taken seriously.”
Oh dear Damien! Looks like someone has disrespected men! Better get on the case!
As I say, some people just can’t take a joke. Lighten up. Thankfully banter is allowed on my site.
Sinead, in regard to your post, I had no intention of entering the feminism debate and I decided to make a post that was more silly than serious.
I don’t see any imbalance between men and women so I saw the whole thing as a bit of a joke to be perfectly honest. That’s why I made humourous comments which were designed to come across as sexist - because I don’t believe there IS any sexism!
Some people missed the point entirely.
I really don’t care though because I won’t be silenced by neurotic ninnies.
December 9th, 2005 at 7:59 pm
Sinéad, have you seen King Kong already? I’m hearing tales of Naomi Watts and CGI’ed juggling. Your ideas intrigue me, how may I subscribe to your newsletter?
December 9th, 2005 at 8:03 pm
I saw it yesterday in London and it’s really enjoyable.
Naomi Watts was asked about the juggling during the press conference and felt the urge to fess up to the fakery.
More on King Kong when I get a chance…
December 9th, 2005 at 8:09 pm
Why would I complain about Twenty Major? He rocks and has my respect. I think it you’re getting carried away with your self-loving by comparing yourself to someone of his calibre.
December 9th, 2005 at 11:58 pm
Without wishing to get too caught up in this particular aspect of the dispute, UI does reveal his attitude clearly in this comment - ” I had no intention of entering the feminism debate and I decided to make a post that was more silly than serious.”
It should have been dismissed as that initially.
But the point made, by the other bloggers was not sillly, there is clearly a concern about the number of women consistently blogging and there is a valid concern about how they are received. Carrie, over at The Broom, has a very good assessment of the situation btw.. as you’ve already noted Sinéad.
There isn’t a lot to add to that.. except to say that I’d echo what Carrie says.. part of the appeal of blogs [at least to me] is that there are a multitude of opinions out there.. on any topic you care to think of - and that’s all any blogger needs to concentrate.. on putting down their opinion and making it a readable post. A good blog is a good blog.. that’s the criteria we all should aim for, regardless of the chosen topic or geographical location.
We choose by what we click on.
December 10th, 2005 at 1:52 am
Damien,
It’s strange how Twenty has your respect when he’s far more politically incorrect than I have ever been.
I have expressed no self-loving and you well know it. Give me one of your awards though and that might change.
December 10th, 2005 at 2:00 am
Couple of points: firstly - thanks for the link.
“If male bloggers were exchanging similarly strong views, it would be reported as weighty wrangling or serious discourse,”
If male bloggers were exchanging similarly strong views, I don’t think they’d be caring too much about what female bloggers were thinking about it. I don’t see why the reverse has to be an issue.
December 10th, 2005 at 4:03 am
*cough*
http://freestater.blogspot.com/2005/12/some-comments-on-feminism-debate.html
December 10th, 2005 at 2:55 pm
“If male bloggers were exchanging similarly strong views, I don�t think they�d be caring too much about what female bloggers were thinking about it. I don�t see why the reverse has to be an issue.”
Of course it’s an issue, if they were having a serious debate, perhaps they wouldn’t care what women think - but being ignored is less derogatory than referring to it as a catfight.
Duly added, EWI, liked your angle.
December 11th, 2005 at 3:01 pm
Mark Waters Says:
December 9th, 2005 at 6:25 pm
It’s ironic that a discussion on feminism gets so hung up on what men think.
I suppose its how you view it, I think its typical that a debate on feminism is deemed a catfight. And some of the posts which were called irony by the author just weren’t and nor were they funny, I found those responses just plain nonsense and resorting to slinging idiotic insults, again typical and boring.
I also find it hilarious people’s comments about Twenty Major, he is seriously funny and is an enviable writer, if thats what various people were aspiring too, they failed miserably.
The fact is sometimes when you mention feminism there are people who throw their arms in horror - what can you do. It says more about them than really.
December 11th, 2005 at 11:44 pm
Thanks Sinead for keeping all the links to the blogs discussing this - My favourites thingie on Internet Explorer was getting very long.
As for the labelling of the debate as catfighting etc - I can’t think of another issue where so many blogs started debating with each other and posting, counterposting and commenting. I certainly have expanded my blogworld horizons and am now reading lots of blogs who’d I never heard of before. If the debate was about testicular cancer screening or some other male specific topic we could have called it a dogfight but the name wouldn’t actually take from the debate or the topic.
Apologies for the urological reference - I can’t really think of a topic that men would find as personal as some women do feminism even though feminism is a social force that has affected both sexes profoundly.
Actually most urologists would contend that testicular cancer has been ignored because it affects males and women have been getting more than share of public information campaigns etc. with regard to breast cancer (and so they should). While practically all women know about breast cancer and the huge importance of self examination, very few men know about testicular self examination or the symtoms of prostate cancer. Testicular cancer affects men in their 20s and is very curable if diagnosed in time. And unlike breast self-exam, which can miss tumours, testicular self exam is very specific and useful.
I’ll get off my testicular self exam hobby horse now…
(I didn’t really realise I actually had an opinion on testicular self exam until I started typing!)
December 12th, 2005 at 5:32 pm
“It’s ironic that a discussion on feminism gets so hung up on what men think.” quoting Mark Waters in his comment.
Mark, “discussion” is the operative word here. What UI posted was not encouraging discussing it was provocation. Now I know how men like to throw insults and slurs in what they loosely call debate; and then they say, sure I was only joking. I believe that UI achieved what he needed from the post, however it cannot go unchallenged.
It’s important that all humans know the difference between insults, taunts, and downright baiting and discussion. The gap is mighty.